Looks like the one silverish lining is that the "like-minded parties" from other EU nations all hate each other as well as brown people. Nationalism defeats its self in a coalition of nations. Nifty.
Talks with France's Front National, Lega Nord, and other groups fell apart, with Lega Nord now joining the new Europe of Freedom and Democracy group, led by Britain's UK Independence Party.
True, sectarianism isn't solely a disease of the far left by any means (look at the history of some of the post-war Third Position movements in Europe for head-shattering splitterdom), but right-wings groups can still work in coalition from time to time :-(
They're only really of any significance in the Euro elections, but they came third in 2004 and second in 2009, helped this year by the fact that they were (wrongly) perceived to be free from the taint of the expenses scandal which The Telegraph helpfully broke in early May.
One problem is that they look like (and to a degree are) a single-issue party: take the UK out of the EU. But they're mostly made up of people for whom the Conservatives are too left-wing; on immigration and crime and punishment, they're not that far from the BNP. In many respects, it's who they are rather than their explicit policies per se that's the problem. Look at the policy documents on their site, and any libertarian will find a lot to agree with.
But then it's worth looking at this discussion of UKIP's non-policy on LGBT rights, which illustrates the problem in more than one way. Firstly, it illustrates the huge gap between their theoretical policies and their individual stances. Secondly, it highlights their doublethink on several key issues: 'We are non-discriminatory but we don't support equal rights for homosexuals,' and that's from their lesbian then party secretary (now an MEP). Thirdly, it illustrates how much of what anyone knows about UKIP policies comes from remarks made informally by individual members, rather than official party briefings. Lastly, it was written in 2004 - UKIP may have changed their views since then, but no one seems to know.
I have a horrible suspicion my father might be a member of UKIP (I know he voted for them a few years ago, but has voted Lib Dem since, and didn't vote this year because he couldn't be bothered) looking at his list of donations of money. He certainly donated some money to both the Tories and some horrible-sounding "get us out of Europe party" just before the Euro elections.
But his LGBT policies would be aligned perfectly with "shoot 'em all". Which is a tad inconvenient given that his queer trans son is the only person who cares enough about him to look after him as he declines.
It's amazing how tolerant people can suddenly become when its their arses on the line, sometimes :-/
Hope your dad sees a bit more sense in his old age. My parents are both economic conservatives, but they're very tolerant and neither has ever given me crap about my sexuality.
Unfortunately he already is in his old age (81). Since my mother died in January he seems to have gone into a sharp decline (mainly, I think, serious depression rather than dementia, but at that age they can present similarly).
I am going to have to relocate and look after him ASAP, I fear.
When I came out as bi at 17 my mother said she'd rather I'd told her I was dying of AIDS and my father grabbed me by the hair, threw me to the ground, and kicked me. So I don't have very high expectations on the tolerance front.
Do you *have* to relocate? Can the local social services not provide support so you don't have to do that? That's a shame, I found our borough to be really helpful when I was doing caring stuff.
I hope you get the chance to have a more tolerant relationship with your dad. My dad had a difficult time with his own father all his life (my grandfather was a pretty harsh guy all round), but I do think they made *some* progress after my grandmother died. Best of luck.
Wow, even the libertarians in the US aren't usually that direct. Here the libertarians who're against LGBT rights talk about it as a "states rights issue" which has the same interesting historical coding as segregation does.
And there are gay people who're not in favor of expanding LGBT rights as well. There are even Jewish skinhead Neo Nazis if you look hard enough.
My apologies, I think I've confused you with someone else on another friend's list. I genuinely thought you were based in Oxford.
That said, I'm aware of most of the *national* parties in the US because of a project I did a few years back in conjunction with a friend whose mother was a Nader activist. I've probably forgotten a few by now - although I'm certainly revisiting the history of Rockwell's American Nazi Party at the moment (was he a strong visual influence on Bod Dodds & the Church of SubGenius or what??) :-/
(UKIP are a national party, insofar as the comparison between the two countries is relevant.)
"I don't think the EU is in the business of murdering people at sea."
Best response of the day. Hilarious.
I do rather enjoy myself when Griffin actually speaks in public. It's almost always a rib-tickling own goal which does nothing to improve his own party's standing with anyone except the positively sociopathic. So defending people's right to free speech has genuine value beyond the purely ethical.
I'm also amused to see that my prediction about the alignments of right-wing groups in the EUP has turned out roughly as I expected; less amused that my suspicions about UKIP have been somewhat vindicated.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2009-07-08 10:44 pm (UTC)Does he somehow think random Libyans in liferafts can get back to Libya without their boats.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-08 10:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 08:45 am (UTC)The interviewer, BBC Correspondent Shirin Wheeler, said: "I don't think the EU is in the business of murdering people at sea."
no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 08:47 am (UTC)Yes, I saw that. But the report I saw cut back to the studio, with another journalist adding the 'making it up as he goes along' comment.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-08 10:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-08 10:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-08 11:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-08 11:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 12:22 am (UTC)Talks with France's Front National, Lega Nord, and other groups fell apart, with Lega Nord now joining the new Europe of Freedom and Democracy group, led by Britain's UK Independence Party.
True, sectarianism isn't solely a disease of the far left by any means (look at the history of some of the post-war Third Position movements in Europe for head-shattering splitterdom), but right-wings groups can still work in coalition from time to time :-(
no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 01:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 06:09 am (UTC)One problem is that they look like (and to a degree are) a single-issue party: take the UK out of the EU. But they're mostly made up of people for whom the Conservatives are too left-wing; on immigration and crime and punishment, they're not that far from the BNP. In many respects, it's who they are rather than their explicit policies per se that's the problem. Look at the policy documents on their site, and any libertarian will find a lot to agree with.
But then it's worth looking at this discussion of UKIP's non-policy on LGBT rights, which illustrates the problem in more than one way. Firstly, it illustrates the huge gap between their theoretical policies and their individual stances. Secondly, it highlights their doublethink on several key issues: 'We are non-discriminatory but we don't support equal rights for homosexuals,' and that's from their lesbian then party secretary (now an MEP). Thirdly, it illustrates how much of what anyone knows about UKIP policies comes from remarks made informally by individual members, rather than official party briefings. Lastly, it was written in 2004 - UKIP may have changed their views since then, but no one seems to know.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 09:37 am (UTC)But his LGBT policies would be aligned perfectly with "shoot 'em all". Which is a tad inconvenient given that his queer trans son is the only person who cares enough about him to look after him as he declines.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 09:45 am (UTC)Hope your dad sees a bit more sense in his old age. My parents are both economic conservatives, but they're very tolerant and neither has ever given me crap about my sexuality.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 10:00 am (UTC)I am going to have to relocate and look after him ASAP, I fear.
When I came out as bi at 17 my mother said she'd rather I'd told her I was dying of AIDS and my father grabbed me by the hair, threw me to the ground, and kicked me. So I don't have very high expectations on the tolerance front.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 10:13 am (UTC)I hope you get the chance to have a more tolerant relationship with your dad. My dad had a difficult time with his own father all his life (my grandfather was a pretty harsh guy all round), but I do think they made *some* progress after my grandmother died. Best of luck.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 12:17 pm (UTC)And there are gay people who're not in favor of expanding LGBT rights as well. There are even Jewish skinhead Neo Nazis if you look hard enough.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 09:42 am (UTC)Please tell me you have heard of UKIP??
no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 10:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 12:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 02:39 pm (UTC)That said, I'm aware of most of the *national* parties in the US because of a project I did a few years back in conjunction with a friend whose mother was a Nader activist. I've probably forgotten a few by now - although I'm certainly revisiting the history of Rockwell's American Nazi Party at the moment (was he a strong visual influence on Bod Dodds & the Church of SubGenius or what??) :-/
(UKIP are a national party, insofar as the comparison between the two countries is relevant.)
no subject
Date: 2009-07-08 11:30 pm (UTC)You and what navy, mate?
Date: 2009-07-09 12:19 am (UTC)Best response of the day. Hilarious.
I do rather enjoy myself when Griffin actually speaks in public. It's almost always a rib-tickling own goal which does nothing to improve his own party's standing with anyone except the positively sociopathic. So defending people's right to free speech has genuine value beyond the purely ethical.
I'm also amused to see that my prediction about the alignments of right-wing groups in the EUP has turned out roughly as I expected; less amused that my suspicions about UKIP have been somewhat vindicated.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-09 09:38 pm (UTC)